It’s difficult to have a clear discussion in Facebook because people aren’t logged in at the same time and it’s easy, once a post has produced 30+ comments, and the sequence of points and counterpoints may become unclear.
I plan on addressing the claims one at a time, but for the most part they exhibit three major flaws or assumptions.
- If Palestinians are bad, then they don’t deserve human rights.
- It fails to recognized the different mechanisms of Israel’s control over non-Jews in the different areas of Palestine.
- Opposition to the blockade of Gaza and the killing and wounding of Gazans is support for Hamas.
My dialogue with TN continues.
I asserted that Israel is an Apartheid state, linking to the press release of a study by the Human Sciences Research Council of South Africa (HSRC). TN did not specifically address any of the claims of this study. In fairness, I had not realized that the full study was no longer easily available on the HSRC web site. The full study is available here as an Adobe file (pdf). Instead TN responded by saying:
I wasn’t aware that black people lived freely and voted under Jim Crow or apartheid. Muslims live freely in Israel and are even exempted from the standard military conscription. Your analogy is false.
Palestinians claim a “right to return” that can also be realistically claimed by Jews. One group has proven capable of living peacefully with another religion/culture within their own borders, and the other has elected leadership that denies the holocaust, references the Protocols of the Elders of Zion in their charter, encouraged harassment of women who didn’t wear the hijab, and burned down a water park because it was a place where men and women intermixed.
where are you getting this?
Where am I getting what? That Muslims live freely in Israel or that Hamas is, at it’s heart, a group bent on fundamentalist Islamic governance that rejects the occurance holocaust and the legitimacy of Israel?
do you have sources?
TN, thankfully, did respond with sources:
Roughly 17% of Israeli citizens are Muslim:
Arab members of Israeli parlaiment (Knesset):
Holocaust denial by Hamas:
Crazy Water Park shut down and burned because of intersex mingling:
Hamas charter re: “Protocols of the Elders of Zion”, destruction of Israel, Jewish conspiracy, Jihad, etc:
The claim that non-Jews in Israel have voting rights is true, but that hardly benefits them and it has no impact at all on the majority of Palestinians who live in the Occupied Palestinian Territories of East Jerusalem, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. We should also not forget about the Golan Heights. Note that Israel has annexed East Jerusalem, but Palestinians there are under another set of restrictions.
I hope TN also realizes that Christians in Israel, East Jerusalem and the OPT face the same restrictions from Israel that Muslims do. So it’s not a Jew v Muslim situation. It’s an Israeli government that governs people differently based on their religion and ethnicity. Simplifying, this is the hierarchy of rights, privileges and statuses: European Jews, non-European Jews, Druze in Israel and other smaller groups, Muslim and Christian indigenous inhabitants of Palestine who managed to remain in what became in Israel in 1948 (although many of them are not in their homes but have a much more tenuous legal status), Muslim and Christian residents of East Jerusalem who remained after Israel’s conquest in 1967, and, finally, the Muslim and Christian residents of the West Bank and Gaza.
Nevertheless, if you read the Israeli press and government officials, you will often find that they fear the existence of the non-Jewish minority in Israel because it is projected to become a larger and larger percentage of Israeli society over time. Several “peace proposals” have involved transfer of non-Jews from Israel or “land swaps” where areas of Israel with Palestinians are exchanged for areas in the West Bank where Jewish colonialists live. Some of the land swap proposals involved sparsely populated land in Israel.
So let’s add up the numbers from the CIA Fact Book and see how important Israel’s granting of the right to vote to non-Jews in Israel is:
In Israel: 7,590,758 (July 2012 est.)